: The Prime Minister is my lead guest this afternoon, Anthony Albanese, Welcome to the program.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Goood afternoon. Good to be with you.
KARVELAS: In the last couple of weeks, some Labor MPs have been feeling a little bit nervous. Today you told your Caucus you would be kicking with the wind in the fourth quarter. It’s a term you used before the last election I recall –
PRIME MINISTER: And the one before.
KARVELAS: Yep, that’s right. Does that mean you think you are in a mid-term slump?
PRIME MINISTER: No, what it means is that you need to make sure that we continue to be focused on the needs of Australians. I spoke at the AIG last night and one of the things that they spoke about was, the theme is taking advantage of turbulent times. So, we need to make sure that we address immediate issues such as cost of living pressures which are out there, such as the need to get inflation down, but do so in a way that builds strength in our economy. So, the examples I used today in the Caucus were, for example, Free TAFE – helps people, it’s cheaper, it’s free. But what it does is build our skills base as well, make sure that we’re building apprenticeships and helping business going forward as well. Productivity presents an enormous opportunity through AI for productivity improvements going forward. And everything that we do, we need to be focused not just on, with due respect here on ABC 24, on the 24 media cycle, 24-hour cycle. We need to make sure as well that we’re focused on where are we at a year ahead, five years ahead, ten years ahead, how do we set Australia up for a stronger future?
KARVELAS: So, you’re saying, I read it as you try to gee them up, trying to say to them, stay the course, don’t freak out, because you know you’ve been struggling in the polls.
PRIME MINISTER: No, well, Patricia –
KARVELAS: I am I not entirely wrong, am I?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, you are –
KARVELAS: No, I am not. I mean it was a sort of sense of stick with me.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, you are. Because one of the things that is very clear, and I spoke about today as well, is that we are now the only mainstream political party in Australia seeking to govern in our own right in the national interest. Angus Taylor went to a far right conference, CPAC on the weekend in Brisbane and declared they were no longer centre right party. They were a right wing party. They spent too much during the COVID period. They made a mistake by ever agreeing to Net Zero. They want to slash immigration in a way that would have a devastating impact on the economy. They are in a race to the bottom with Pauline Hanson. And now you have Josh Frydenberg, the Shadow Opposition Leader, out there stalking Angus Taylor very openly. I mean, you can’t turn on TV without – I’m surprised Josh Frydenberg isn’t trying to bump me off this program.
KARVELAS: Well, no, I thought I’d keep you as the lead guest. You are the Prime Minister –
PRIME MINISTER: But he might be coming up later on.
KARVELAS: He’s always welcome, as he’s, as are a lot of people. But are you getting feedback from your MPs that some of them are worried that they’ll be oncers? It’s a term that, you know, you might only get one term.
PRIME MINISTER: No, they are doing their work in their electorates. They’re making a difference, whether it’s strengthening Medicare, what we are doing there, whether it is the education system from early childhood, through to proper schools funding, through to the university’s legislation, the latest of which was carried just today. Whether it be the 1.3 million jobs that have been created, making sure that in what are difficult global times, you have global inflation, you’re seeing a rise in interest rates right around the developed world, that we are very much focused on making a positive difference in making sure that we govern with progressive policies, but making sure they’re part of the mainstream as well. Our engagement in the world as well is very important.
KARVELAS: Well, let me ask you about the world. Are you going to go to the COP Conference?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
KARVELAS: Why have you decided to go? I mean, we weren’t sure if you would.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, if you had have asked me, I would have told you. It’s been in my diary for some time. It’s important, given particularly the role that Australia has played in the lead up to COP that I attend. I’ve been invited specifically by President Erdoğan. The relationship with Türkiye is a very important one. And I think it sends a really good message that you essentially have leadership of this COP from Türkiye and Australia, two countries that are geographically very, very distant, have different economies, different cultures, but which are working together in the interests of humanity. Climate change is real. The science, unfortunately, that was predicted, told us there would be more extreme weather events and they would be more intense. We’ve always had extreme weather events in a country like Australia, of course, so you can’t say any specific event is just because of climate change, but you can point towards the trends which are there. And with the Super El Niño that’s coming up this summer as well, this is a time where Australians will be very much focused on the impact of climate change.
KARVELAS: So, you believe that the issue of climate change will rise in the public consciousness as we go into summer?
PRIME MINISTER: We’re already seeing Australians being prepared to take action, not just in the interest of lowering emissions, but making a difference to their own household budgets as well. That’s why some 540,000 Australians have taken advantage of the cheaper batteries, the battery subsidy policy. We have more solar panels per capita on our roofs than any country in the world. We’ve got an extraordinary take up of EVs now overtaking the internal combustion engine cars which just, it’s not that long ago –
KARVELAS: No, it’s been a radical change –
PRIME MINISTER: That Scott Morrison said that you can’t tow your boat and you can’t tow your caravan and all that nonsense, that it would end the weekend, literally, was an election campaign just three elections ago. Now Australians are acting. That’s an example of what I spoke about today in the Caucus of short-term action that makes a difference for people, but which sets us up for the future.
KARVELAS: What do you make of the US live streaming an execution by firing squad?
PRIME MINISTER: I note that President Trump has said that that is under consideration, and I certainly have a personal view, of course. Australia has had a bipartisan position of opposition to the death penalty. And I find the idea of live streaming the death of anybody completely abhorrent. We should do whatever we can to stop that occurring. I don’t know why anyone would want themselves to watch such an event, let alone sit back and allow potentially kids and families to get access to this. It has no place as far as I’m concerned, it’s not who we are.
KARVELAS: So, what can you do to stop it Prime Minister? The e-Safety Commissioner says they can’t do anything. Are there things you can do?
PRIME MINISTER: It is difficult. I’ve asked – we will do whatever we can, I assure you –
KARVELAS: What have you asked for?
PRIME MINISTER: We have asked what can we do to stop this. It is difficult. It’s one of the challenges we have with technology –
KARVELAS: Yeah, absolutely –
PRIME MINISTER: With the device that you have in front of you there, things pop through. The Internet is something that’s hard for us to –
KARVELAS: So, is it worth talking to the social media companies about? Because it will then spread on social media –
PRIME MINISTER: Don’t worry, we’re going to make it very clear, and I’m making it very clear to them right now that as far as I’m concerned, this has no place in our country. It’s not a part of our values that have been long standing and it has no place. And I think for their social licence as well, I think anyone broadcasting this will damage their own reputations as well. They have a social responsibility here to do the right thing. And certainly, you know, we will do whatever we can.
KARVELAS: Okay. So, the Government is looking at options to try and shut that down, right?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course, but these things are not just as simple as turning off a light switch. And we will do what we can to shut it down.
KARVELAS: And is anyone giving you any advice that there might be some options available to you?
PRIME MINISTER: We are receiving that advice.
KARVELAS: Okay. And you are prepared to do what it takes to try and limit –
PRIME MINISTER: Correct. If there is something, anything we can do, we will do. I assure you of that.
KARVELAS: How about advocacy to Donald Trump that it’s unacceptable?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, President Trump, of course, has already said that he is giving consideration to this, and I hope that there is a response in the United States as well. They have a different position, of course –
KARVELAS: Yeah, of course –
PRIME MINISTER: On capital punishment.
KARVELAS: But we’ve advocated to other nations historically that we don’t accept it.
PRIME MINISTER: What we’ve done is advocate on behalf of Australians very strongly as well, and I’ve been a strong advocate of that with countries, particularly in our region.
KARVELAS: Must disturb you then, that our closest ally is going down this road?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, capital punishment is something that has been present in the United States for a long period of time.
KARVELAS: Now it looks to be, now it looks to be glorified, though?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think there is, I have a very strong personal view coming from my own moral convictions, but as well as just, to me, I just find it abhorrent that anyone would want to watch something like this.
KARVELAS: I want to talk to you about AI. You’ve got this joint letter from the two, the Co-Chairs, so to speak, the leader and the deputy. Copyright law. They’re asking for a change to copyright law. You know that the creatives don’t want you to touch or change the laws. Are you going to?
PRIME MINISTER: We want to protect copyright. We want to make sure that we protect the interests of creatives. I’ve made that very clear. We want to make sure that they have control over what is their intellectual property, and if it is used, that there’s proper payment for it. We’ve made that clear. That’s a part of the AI Standards that we’re developing –
KARVELAS: And does that include changes in copyright laws?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it might mean that you’ve got to change things in order to protect the interests of the creative sector. Let’s be very clear, Patricia, the idea that there’s not scraping of intellectual property, be it songs or books or programs, transcripts of this program, or your voice, or a whole range of things, is occurring –
KARVELAS: I think that’s right.
PRIME MINISTER: This is a complex issue. We need to get on top of it. We need to make sure that we act in the interests of humanity so that we are in control. That’s something that is, I think, a moral position as well as a political one and an economic one as well. AI has an enormous potential to boost productivity, to boost business efficiency, to create jobs, and for us as well to be a party to shaping it, which is why engagement with the frontier companies is important. But we’ve also had lessons, including of course, the issue that occurred with the Medicare site that fortunately wasn’t about people’s health details, that was about the Medicare stats, if you like, of how much pharmaceuticals have been used and etc. But that was an AI agent –
KARVELAS: It was a warning shot, really, wasn’t it?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, it was. It showed us that these AI agents can act on their own, that we need proper regulation of it, that that needs to be something that nations can play a role in. And that’s why we need to be engaged in this issue. We can’t just pretend that it isn’t happening.
KARVELAS: Let me ask you some other questions. In Victoria, the Labor Party Leader, Ben Carroll wants Warren Pickering, who’s the leader of One Nation in Victoria, to be part of the state election debate. Do you think that’s wise?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it’s up to, up to him.
KARVELAS: Is it a sign, though, that times have changed, political trends have changed. Would you allow Pauline Hanson to be on stage with you?
PRIME MINISTER: But of course, it has changed. And you know that in Victoria, Ben Carroll is the only person, I think, who can be Premier in his own right. The alternative is chaos. The alternative is a Liberal National or whatever’s left of them, and One Nation working together.
KARVELAS: Doesn’t mean One Nation should be on the platform debating?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, in the current climate in Victoria with the polls, then One Nation needs to be held to the same scrutiny as the other political parties.
KARVELAS: So, on that metric, as we go into the next season, and you know how short terms are, I know you’d like fixed terms, but you’re not going to change it right now. No more referendums. But I understand that it’s going to be very soon. You know this. The election’s just going to come around –
PRIME MINISTER: We’re not halfway through yet, Patricia –
KARVELAS: Well, it feels to me like it’s on the cusp –
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that –
KARVELAS: Let’s not debate time, we must experience time differently –
PRIME MINISTER: That’s because of the 24-hour media cycle, and what I’m saying –
KARVELAS: Yeah –
PRIME MINISTER: Is that I’m not spooked by that. What I’m doing is we act as an orderly government. We’re not halfway through this term yet, Patricia –
KARVELAS: I get that. And I’m not spooked by that is a good line. So, let me help you with this question. One Nation, if they’re still polling strongly, things can change, but if they are, do you think they should be part of that platform as we go into the election?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that’s a question in 18 months’ time –
KARVELAS: But if you think the precedent’s been set in Victoria –
PRIME MINISTER: That’s a question in 18 months’ time, Patricia –
KARVELAS: In Victoria it’s a good idea?
PRIME MINISTER: One of the things that will occur with One Nation is increasingly as they’re seen to be, as they are in the Victorian Election, a serious contest there, they need to be held to account and people need to ask themselves whatever issues that they have, and I understand that people under financial pressure, we live in very turbulent times –
KARVELAS: Yeah, they’re angry –
PRIME MINISTER: And people, many people – I understand that.
KARVELAS: Yeah –
PRIME MINISTER: The question for people to ask though, is – are they capable of being government or would they make the situation which many people find difficult, would it be made better or worse if One Nation are a part of a government?
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, you do have to go, but I just have to ask – on the credit card issue, in relation to the Australian Tax Office not taking credit cards, your government stepped in to make sure that they can businesses use their credit cards till June next year. After that, they’ll still want to, will you extend it? What are you looking to do?
PRIME MINISTER: What we’ve said at the time we made the announcement is, and I’ll be speaking to ACCI tonight, is that we want that to be a period of proper consultation so that it works for business as well as making sure that people essentially deal with that principle, which is there, which is the price that you see, is the price that you get.
KARVELAS: So, you want to get to a resolution and you’re getting involved in that?
PRIME MINISTER: I’m always involved in many things, Patricia –
KARVELAS: But you stepped in on this one too, didn’t you?
PRIME MINISTER: I’m involved in lots of things. That’s my job as Prime Minister, is to make a difference –
KARVELAS: And you want permanent resolution beyond you?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course. I want to work with – when I spoke to the Australian Industry Group last night. I’m speaking to ACCI tonight. What I do is engage with business, engage with unions, engage with civil society and try to act in the national interest. Bring people together. That’s what we need. And that is one of the distinctions in Australian politics between that and the other side, whether it’s the Liberals or Nationals or One Nation constantly seeking division and to pit people against each other. That’s not a way forward that doesn’t take our country forward.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, you’ve been generous with your time. Thanks for coming in.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Patricia.
