Minister for Indigenous Australians
DAVID SPEERS, INSIDERS HOST: Linda Burney, welcome to the program.
LINDA BURNEY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS: Thanks, David
DAVID SPEERS: So you’ve listed four priority areas you would like the Voice to focus on, but won’t it be up to the Voice to decide for itself what it wants to pursue?
LINDA BURNEY: The priority areas that I’ve identified are health, housing, jobs and, of course, housing – sorry, education. The really important thing to understand is that I have been involved in Aboriginal affairs for 44 years. I’ve travelled this country extensively and they are the persistent issues that are raised with me. The relationship that I want with the Voice is a two-way process, David, one of respect, one of listening to fresh ideas about intractable problems. The issues around obviously baby birth weights, the issues around life expectancy, of course, are important. But let’s look at the community development program. It’s a jobs program, it’s affecting 1000 communities. And it is failing. It is absolutely failing. And not one size fits all 1000 communities. Those are the points I was making.
DAVID SPEERS: I’m just trying to get a sense for the viewers of how this works. If the Voice gets up at the referendum, would you, as Minister, be advising the Voice on what they should be advising you on?
LINDA BURNEY: The Voice is about two things. It’s about making a practical difference to the shocking social justice outcomes for Aboriginal people. And of course, it’s about that wonderful, unifying aspect of recognising 65,000 years of truth, of story, of history in our Constitution. David I was ten years old in 1967 when we were counted after a successful referendum and the Commonwealth got the responsibility for Aboriginal Affairs. So, this is something that’s come from Aboriginal people. It is something that Aboriginal people have been asking for from as far back as the 1930s. The relationship will be one, as I said, based on trust, based on a two way process. And I can assure people watching us this morning that the issues that the Voice will be focused on are issues that worry people watching this show, the disparity. And that’s what we’re going to be focusing on.
DAVID SPEERS: But by setting these priorities, are you indicating this is where you might legislate the Voice should or shouldn’t go. Would you put these sort of priorities, health, education, housing, jobs into legislation as to what you’d like the Voice to do?
LINDA BURNEY: The point that I made just previously, it will be a two way process. It will be something based on trust. And I have held in the past a position in an advocacy body and know how important it is to work collaboratively with the Government, to raise issues with the Government that the Government needs to hear. But remember, this Voice is not just about advising the Government, it’s also about advising the Parliament. So, if there is legislation, for example, coming through the Parliament that directly affects Aboriginal people, the Parliament could seek the views of the Voice. There is nothing to lose from this proposal but there is so much to gain.
DAVID SPEERS: Just on this legislation question though, you’ll have to legislate the voice after the referendum, if it gets up. Would that include the remit of the Voice, the areas that it can and can’t cover?
LINDA BURNEY: The legislation that you’re referring to, particularly for our viewers this morning, is after the referendum, which will be asking you to protect the Voice in the Constitution so it cannot be gotten rid of by the stroke of a pen. The legislation that will follow this will determine the composition of the Voice, the functions of the Voice and ultimately the establishment of the Voice.
DAVID SPEERS: What about the scope though? I’m just asking, would it be the scope as well, of the areas, the issues that it can cover?
LINDA BURNEY: The way that I see it as the Minister, David, is that that scope should be a respectful discussion with the Voice. I have identified very clearly, I have identified very clearly what I think the priorities are. But obviously there are other issues like baby birth weights, like life expectancy. But I just really say to you very clearly, there is nothing to lose and there is everything to gain from the establishment of the Voice.
DAVID SPEERS: But just to be clear on this two way process you’re talking about, you’d talk to the Voice, they’d talk to you, but you’re not going to legislate what they can and can’t advise on.
LINDA BURNEY: The Voice is an independent body chosen by Aboriginal people, to represent their views and their voices in Canberra. And I will respect that independence.
DAVID SPEERS: Look you’ve mentioned some of the issues that you believe the Voice will be interested in providing advice on, and you gave a couple of practical examples too, during the week at the Press Club. Improving school attendance in remote communities, fixing the Community Development Program you mentioned there on the jobs front, birthing on country. Just give us a sense of how that works. So, if the Voice were to come to you as Minister and say, we need more funding to encourage more birthing on country, what happens?
LINDA BURNEY: Well, a fantastic example of this is a place called Waminda in Nowra that are in the process of developing a birthing on country program. But the way that it practically works, David, is that we know that this is successful. When doctors listen to patients, they get better outcomes. When bosses listen to workers, they get better outcomes and when policymakers listen to Aboriginal people, they get better outcomes. And we know that where birthing on country has been in place, that there has been a halving of early deliveries, in fact, premature babies, in other words. It means involving culture, it means involving language, it means involving the extended family. It is a very different way of doing business and it makes sure that Aboriginal women having babies are seeing their Aboriginal midwife earlier and sooner and more often during pregnancies. It’s a two way process also. It means that those institutions that deliver babies become more familiar with the Aboriginal women that they’re working with and can take into consideration things like when a baby is born in the Aboriginal community, certain procedures, certain cultural aspects are taken care of. That’s a practical example.
But think about this, David, that in the education space, there is at least a one to three year gap with young children in literacy and numeracy. And that gap gets wider as that young person gets older. And we had just last year only 57% of Aboriginal children or young people finishing high school and over 80% of the rest of the community. That is a gap that I would expect the Voice to be able to advise how we close that gap.
DAVID SPEERS: Would you, as Minister, put more weight on advice from the Voice than advice from your own department?
LINDA BURNEY: Look, that is a hypothetical, but thank you for it. Obviously you listen to your own department. But the way in which we’re looking at Aboriginal affairs under Anthony Albanese’s leadership is the way that it should be – that Jason Clare is responsible for education, so I’d be speaking with Jason Clare and he’d be getting advice, but obviously we’d be seeking advice from the Voice.
DAVID SPEERS: Okay, but on something like birthing on country or the jobs issues you’re talking about, if the Voice says one thing and your department says another, what do you, as Minister, do?
LINDA BURNEY: Well, I have enormous experience, as you know. I’d be listening to both and trying to make sure that what goes forward is what will work for Aboriginal young people in school. This is not complex. I mean, I am in Launceston today and will be door knocking with Bridget Archer this afternoon. I’m speaking tomorrow afternoon with Peter Gutwein at the University of Tasmania. And it’s about listening to people. It’s about showing respect. And as I say, this is about bringing ideas forward that make a practical difference to the lives of Indigenous people, and everyone agrees that that needs to happen.
DAVID SPEERS: You have said, you told Parliament the Voice won’t be giving advice on changing Australia Day. But it could, couldn’t it?
LINDA BURNEY: I know Aboriginal Australia and I know that people know what the important issues… Things like what I’ve identified, education, health, housing, jobs. And Josie Douglas, who is this remarkable Aboriginal woman in the Central Land Council put it perfectly: ‘We are about changing lives, not changing dates.’
DAVID SPEERS: I don’t doubt that view is there, but it can provide advice on that issue, can’t it?
LINDA BURNEY: The Voice, I know, will concentrate on issues to close the gap in this country. David, we’ve got 19 targets and four are on track. That cannot be good for the country. And it’s certainly not good for Aboriginal people.
DAVID SPEERS: I want to get your thoughts on that ad that ran in the Financial Review during the week from the No campaign. It depicted the Wesfarmers Chairman, Michael Chaney handing a wad of cash to Yes campaigner Thomas Mayo. Kate Chaney, the Independent MP, sitting on the knee of her father. Was this a racist ad in your view?
LINDA BURNEY: This was universally and appropriately criticised. Totally unacceptable. And I think Matt Kean, the Shadow Health Minister in NSW, really nailed it, David, where he likened it to ‘a racist trope’ from the Jim Crow days in America. But was also incredibly sexist. And it is something, in the words of Matt Kean, the No Camp has every right to have a say, but there are better ways of doing it.
DAVID SPEERS: Final one on the Voice. If the referendum fails later this year, will you still seek to legislate the Voice so it can do all of the good things you’re talking about this morning?
LINDA BURNEY: The focus of myself and the Government is absolutely on a successful referendum. It’s why I’m down here in Tasmania. It’s why I’m heading over to Western Australia on Monday night, going to Albany, Port Headland and Kununurra. There will be, in my view, and I’ve said this many times, I have enormous faith in the Australian people. And I don’t say that because I’m supposed to say it. I say it because I really believe it. And I believe that this will be a successful referendum.
DAVID SPEERS: Okay, but if not, will you still legislate it?
LINDA BURNEY: It will be a successful referendum.
DAVID SPEERS: Just finally, Linda Burney on Robodebt and the Royal Commission report: As the report notes, you, as Shadow Minister for Human Services, wrote to Alan Tudge this was way back in 2016, raising concerns, asking for the debt recovery action to be paused. It wasn’t. Knowing what we know now, do you think there should be further consequences for the former Ministers involved?
LINDA BURNEY: I think there has to be consequences for people involved.
DAVID SPEERS: Like what?
LINDA BURNEY: I don’t know what’s in the sealed section, but what I do know, David, is this – is that Labor had been raising these issues as far back as 2016. The Commissioner has said that this was cruel, it was unlawful, and it made innocent people feel like criminals. And I spoke to so many people when I was the Shadow Minister for Human Services. We knew the algorithm was unjust and unfair and that there was no human involvement in it. This is a shocking indictment of it not being stopped. And it just it just says to me there has to be consequences. I can’t articulate exactly what they should be because I don’t know what’s in the sealed section, but the brave people that came forward over this issue, I just say thank you.
DAVID SPEERS: All right, Linda Burney, we’ll have to leave it there. Thanks for joining us.
LINDA BURNEY: Thank you, David.
